The Post in which I start to offend people
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It’s taken some doing, but I now believe that there are dominant women out there. Not just pro-dommes, although they often work there, but just generally dominant women. Now that I believe that, thoughts turn to how to find them for my long-suffering friend Axe. We had the following conversation the other day on IM.
Bad Man: think abut it from a genetic perspective - what genetic advantage does a totally submissive man offer? one that can’t protect, one that can’t lead the children, one that can’t provide…
Bad Man: this is why the man that shows up submissive doesn’t do well. It’s genetic.
Axe Unspeakable: i gotcha
Bad Man: But knowing that opens up pathways towards understanding, and thus, towards getting what you want.
Axe Unspeakable: certainly something to think about
Axe Unspeakable: still…gotta find them out there
Bad Man: please.
Bad Man: they’re out there.
Bad Man: you need to do three things.
Bad Man: 1) Find a way to fill the masculine role, even though you’re submissive.
Bad Man: 2) make clear that you can provide sexy sons (I’m not kidding about that) who are likely to then produce successful offspring themselves.
Axe Unspeakable: not sure how to do that but ok
Axe Unspeakable: ok not sure how to do number one either but i’m taking notes
Bad Man: 3) Not show up submissive. That’s not in the genetic code of most women. Showing up saying “walk on me” isn’t gender correct.
Bad Man: nothing wrong with that (witness: Jewish Men) but showing up that way, or, say, emailing that in the first five emails on nerve, will turn back bad results.
Bad Man: because I have to say. Asa dominant man, if I see a woman email me in the first few emails saying “Oh, I’m a sub, I want you to beat me” or whatever, I’d be kind of icked out. What’s the challenge? What’s the excitement? What’s the point, even?
There was a moment when I wondered, independently of this, whether the lack of dominant women said more about feminism or more about Axe. I’m not sure, frankly.
Your thoughts?
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I enjoy being dominant but find myself repulsed by a man who says he is submissive. Quandry, no? I look at it this way, while I very much enjoy and want to be in charge, my man must show some spine or I’ll use, abuse and walk all over him until I grow tired of his wussiness and toss him out the door. If Axe truly wants a dominant woman, he must not give away that he is a submissive immediately. Let her find out in her own time, but until then, maintain manly man status. I’d rather find out in the bedroom with a request to be pegged than in a bar when I have to save him from some jackass.
Although in some ways I do disagree with the fundamental concepts behind your statements, this post doesn’t offend me. I think you’ve hit on a pretty common theme of advice for submissive men. And honestly, I think you’ve done it better than it’s usually presented.
I take issue with hiding one’s sexuality, or lying about it. And I also take issue with the idea that a man’s submission is detrimental to his manliness, independence, or ability to bear sexy sons. But unfortunately in the broader world of dating submission is considered detrimental to these strengths, and as a result, people often hide it or lie about it.
I’m happy to see that you’re not telling Axe to lie or hide, but rather to adjust his character to show positive lights. What I’m hoping is that he can eventually come to a place where he can pick women up by being an attractive, strong, sexy, and independent submissive man. All together. I do think that’s possible, and the living proof (Maymay) is sitting next to me as I type this.
And thank you for acknowledging the existence of dominant women. It bothers us when we’re told we don’t exist.
Badman. I know I’ve said this a million times but thank you again for all of your help and suggestions.
@Scorpio First of all. Thank goodness we haven’t met. Otherwise I would have repulsed you and that’s the opposite of what I want to do to a dominant woman.
Secondly, every single time, (again EVERY SINGLE TIME) I’ve met someone that I eventually showed my submission to, has been either turned off by it or confessed that she wanted to be submissive herself.
I think the key word in your comment is “I enjoy being dominant”. It sounds like it’s a casual for you, like it’s something you could live without. Plus, I imagine (forgive me, it’s 4AM and I’ve had a few beers) that you’re idea of dominance is different than mine. I’m much more hardcore than simply wanting to get spanked while fucking a woman. I’m not talking about BDSM 101 stuff here. The type of person I’m into is someone who doesn’t just enjoy being dominant, she needs to be dominant.
I just came back from a party where a woman addressed me as “Sir” because she just assumed I was dominant (this is not uncommon). It’s not like I’m a pushover by any means.
The reason I tell women I’m submissive up front is because I’m not about to waste my time with someone who isn’t into what I’m into. I’ve wasted far too much time and money on vanilla women who I hoped would be open to the idea.
@Eileen Can we please clone you?
See, here I am confused again. I do take exception to a variety of things that you say but I’m not particularly offended. I know that, by default, the social assumption is that masculinity lines up with dominance but does Axe (or anyone) really want a woman that thinks that? That thinks that just because she is female she must take the submissive role? Even in a vanilla relationship?
Speaking of dominance, check this out…
http://rsdnation.com/showthread.php?t=28177
It’s amazing what dominance can do…
The idea that a submissive man “can’t protect, can’t feed the children…” is a caricature of submissiveness. Submission does not equal weakness and dominance isn’t superiority. It pisses me off when dominants and submissives alike perpetuate that ridiculousness. Moreover, submission shouldn’t be indiscriminate: it’s as much a gift, a privilege as my dominance. Don’t submit to me unless I ask for it and earn it. I tell the men who offer me their submission: Come strong or don’t come at all. Be all the man you are. Bring that to me, surrender it. All of it. I insist.
I have a personal lover who is submissive to me. He’s a 6′5 linebacker who knows how I like my coffee, when it’s Lobster Club day at Keen’s, what I read on the plane, knows I prefer to fly out of LGA, and makes sure there’s always a robe in my hotel room. He says to me, “All you have to do is show up.” He was on orgasm control with me for two years and I walk all over him. Literally. Spend time with us and you have no doubt he is submissive to me — and me alone. That is what a submissive man looks like to me.
Where I see axe go wrong sometimes is that he puts his submission first: objectifying his own sexual orientation in the same way he objectifies the women he hopes will dominate him. If he’d only focus his efforts on being axe, on showing all of axe’s dimension, not just the subby part.
Scorpio - I agree with you, showing up as a doormat isn’t attractive regardless of gender.
Eileen - I think Axe can already pick women up with his charm, good looks, and grace. The trouble is the submissive part - finding a dominant woman that fits his extremely high standard. More on that another day, or perhaps he and I will do a podcast or something on this issue.
Axe - Always a pleasure. The part where you say “The reason I tell women I’m submissive up front is because I’m not about to waste my time with someone who isn’t into what I’m into. I’ve wasted far too much time and money on vanilla women who I hoped would be open to the idea” is the part that trips me up, and I’m still working on that. Perhaps we need (collectively, you seem to have a fan club here..!) to figure out how you can filter for that in your initial dating prospecting without tipping your hand that it’s so consumptive of your identity, assuming it is?
Ellie - It’s not so much that it’s masculinity = dominance, it’s that doormat = unattractive. And that traditional masculine characteristics aren’t doormat-favorable. (See, e.g. Troy’s comment below. BUT SEE most American sitcoms and advertisements, wherein the otherwise strong men are submissive to their mates. Somehow this works in the movies, but less so for Axe)
JasonM - A fine story. Not sure how it’s relevant, but congratulations on your success.
Troy - I don’t see that we’re disagreeing - you’re basically saying “show up, be a man, and then submit to me as a gift.” I’m saying “show up, be a man, and then submit.” Both of us seem to be saying something about submission being something given to a lover who has earned it, not foist upon someone in a first meeting.
And to all of you, then, (including JasonM), how do we help Axe bring out his natural-Axeness, filter for women who are icked out by heavy BDSM, and get the man the sort of release he needs?
Axe, Axe, Axe.
After speaking with Bad Man about your issues I’ve come to believe one thing: you’d be best served by paying for what you want.
Of course I enjoy being dominant. I’m the dominant one in all my relationships. Just because I enjoy it doesn’t make it a choice, or a give and take. Being dominant is me. It is a part of who I am.
Scorpio,
I suppose I’m screwed then since there’s no way I could afford it.
I’m curious to know how you meet submissive guys if you are repulsed by those who say they’re submissive.
I’m not sure what Bad Man told you about my issues, but it sounds like you didn’t find them to be positive in the least.
Axe: Not to go on and on here in Bad Man’s world BUT ….
I’m a fan of a little mystery. I don’t want to know everything immediately. Saying you are submissive in the first few minutes, hours or dates doesn’t interest me. I probably *know* you are submissive, internally, and I don’t particularly want you to just come out and say it. I’d rather beat it out of you or bend you over the couch as my bitch.
Men I meet are typically attracted to a strong woman. That is me.
Your issues being ageism and lookism, from what I understand, and if you want the latest, newest, hottest woman on the planet to make you her submissive, I suggest you pay her to do so. Make it part of your game. If you can’t afford to do this, I would suggest a slight lowering of standards. Not to the point of ‘anyone will do.’ That isn’t acceptable either. We all know what we want and how we want it, it is just that the women that Bad Man described to me that you want, well, they are being paid well on a regular basis to do just what you want. Either that or they expect a nice shiny diamond in fairly short order to keep things fair.
Everyone trades in something … decide for yourself what it is you want and find out what it is you can offer to make that happen.
–S.
I disagree with you - but that is mostly because i disagree with your concept of gender as a whole. And that is fine. most people do - but what I take issue with is this:
“Bad Man: 3) Not show up submissive. That’s not in the genetic code of most women. Showing up saying “walk on me†isn’t gender correct.
Bad Man: nothing wrong with that (witness: Jewish Men) but showing up that way, or, say, emailing that in the first five emails on nerve, will turn back bad results.”
Will you please explain what you are saying about Jewish men? As I can see it you are saying they are fundamentally weak.
Ruby - I’ve encountered (as a Jewish man) the stereotype of Jewish men as submissive first to their mothers (witness the cultural icon that is the Jewish Mother archetype) and then to their spouses, and eventually to their daughters, should they have any. I extrapolated from that. Also, in my mind, aswe are a matrilineal society we would and should have very strong women, and our men have been stereotyped as willing, if not wanting, to accept a submissive role to them for the sake of the tribe. At least, that’s the stereotype as I’ve encountered it. Maybe it’s just a Long Island Jewish thing, or a Northeastern US thing. It’s one of the reasons I haven’t dated in the faith in a long long time - although I keep an open mind about doing so in the future.
I should also point out that this D/s thing, for me, is entirely a “bedroom” thing. In the waking world, it doesn’t apply (unless it does).
Uh, disconnect. If it’s a “bedroom” thing for you, why wouldn’t it be for someone who’s submissive?
You can’t go clubbing the meter reader over the head to get your way and you can’t go out begging women to walk on you and expect to get dates. We all have to function in a society to an extent that our sexualities should not necessarily be foremost on out sleeves - only in SM dating bizzaro world do people dispense with the basic 101 facets of interaction on a date in favor of “be a caricature and front like MAD!” - which is just weird.
I also haven’t internalized enough anti-semitism to see all my bretheren as pussyboys. It’s funny, I also don’t date in the tribe much, and by your logic I should be doing it like mad, because I like submales.
The bit about sons is hysterical, though. Nothing would get me running and screaming further and faster from a date than to start talking about spawning. Maybe the advice of “be yourself and don’t pressure her, be funny and endearing, and be hot to her in some form and the rest will follow” might sit well?
wowjustwow - you’re coming in halfway through the story. Axe is a lifestlye sub who wants to be 24/7. That’s why. Because this was specific advice for a specific friend.
If you have a problem with the sons issue, take it up with Matt Ridley, author of the Red Queen, from which I got it. Not me.
Hey, I know this is an older post but I saw a link to it & just wanted to chime in. I think a good role model for submissive men is Lancelot or Job. Strong manly men who worship and are subordinate to a higher power that treats them like shit but that just eggs them on to try to be more worshipful. No one wants a worm. It’s no fun to dominate someone who doesn’t have their own personal power. Axe, if you’re reading this, think like Lancelot. And don’t just go through the motions- don’t just find someone who’ll do, find a woman genuinely worthy of your worship and desire or it won’t work out.
Scorpio, surely being in a loving, trusting relationship, with an equal, however you choose to balance things within those terms is better than paying women for sex? It is perfectly conceivable that submissive and dominant people of any gender can make each other happy, without paying for it in however many wonderfully dirty ways there are of achieving that. What isn’t is the idea of equality for women being represented by the stereotypes of treating men or women - other human beings - badly in moral terms. Paying for and being paid for sexual services isn’t liberating or loving. It ruins lives. Pro dom women aren’t liberating women or at the cutting edge of the women’s rights politics.
Treat people with respect even when they are submitting to you..
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